Long Term E85 Use: A Discussion

[GlazierGlaze]

Hello -

There seems to be alot of people switching to full E85 on the stock fuel system. To relieve some of my own concerns and likely others regarding switching to full E85, both in the short term and the long term, I wanted to get a discussion going about what we're seeing or thinking we may see down the line regarding cars using the stock fuel system and full E85 for 10-25K of mileage - specifically fuel pump wear, line degradation, injector buildup, etc.

Please comment with your experience or discussion points.

[chetrickerman]

Long term E85 use should not cause any issues these days. The E85 is much cleaner than was was available years ago.

OEM fuel lines should easily be up to the task of long term E85 use.

Although you should check the ethanol content regularly from where you fill up.

I ran E85 for 6 years straight in my Evo with not a single fuel issue besides needing lots of it (albeit different car)

[GlazierGlaze]

Bump

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by chetrickerman

Long term E85 use should not cause any issues these days. The E85 is much cleaner than was was available years ago.

OEM fuel lines should easily be up to the task of long term E85 use.

Although you should check the ethanol content regularly from where you fill up.

I ran E85 for 6 years straight in my Evo with not a single fuel issue besides needing lots of it (albeit different car)

What Chet is saying is correct.

All modern fuel systems are built to handle ethanol, as even regular pump gas is E10 (10% ethanol) and there is actually a push to increase pump-gas ethanol percentage to E30(30%) in the US. Long-term E85 usage is only an issue if you don't run a tank of pump gas through the system every 3k miles or 3 months (whichever is sooner). Running pump-gas through the system regular intervals helps clean the fuel system.

Ethanol is an alcohol fuel and alcohol is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs moisture. So care must be taken to not allow E85 to sit for long periods or be stored in places exposed to moisture. I don't recommend keeping E85 in your fuel tank for long periods for cars that are being stored or that don't get driven a lot. For the latter, it's best to keep a full tank so as to not have any air in the tank that the E85 could pull moisture from.

It's also important to spot-check your E85 using a simple ethanol tester ($12 on Amazon) and that once you find a good pump, always use that same pump if you can (again spot-check every few fill-ups).

If care is taken, E85 is an amazing fuel and none of the details above should deter you from using it.

p.s. As Chet said regarding his EVO, I too had an EVO (VIII) that ran 100%E85 for about 8 years straight with not a single issue and that car had an archaic fuel system as compared to today's standards and especially when compared to the S55's fuel system.

[schnell1982]

Has anyone that ran 100% E85 on a stock fuel system on the S55 engine checked fuel injector seals and or fuel pump components yet to confirm that the fueling will not damage seals.
Not to judge your comment but assuming the late model car fuel systems can handle E85 and knowing if it really can before it starts to possibly had a negative effect would be nice to see clarification.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by schnell1982

Has anyone that ran 100% E85 on a stock fuel system on the S55 engine checked fuel injector seals and or fuel pump components yet to confirm that the fueling will not damage seals.
Not to judge your comment but assuming the late model car fuel systems can handle E85 and knowing if it really can before it starts to possibly had a negative effect would be nice to see clarification.

The S55, being a very high pressure DI system, is meant to operate at 2900+psi. The injectors don't have rubber seals or anything like that, they are press-fit into the head using a Teflon ring and the inner parts of the injectors are stainless steel as is the whole high-pressure side of the fuel system.

That said, modern fuel systems that have any rubber in the system is made with ethanol-proof rubber due to the amount of ethanol already in pump fuel and a growing push to increase ethanol in pump fuels in the future.

I have run E85 and high ethanol mixes longer than anybody in the world (for the S55), since I was the first tuner in the world to figure out that the S55 could run straight E85 and to reverse engineer the tuning involved to actually make it happen at stock boost, much less these very elevated boost pressures i can tune for now (even on aftermarket turbos). I have not had a SINGLE issue on my development M4. I follow my own advice and run a tank of pump every 3k miles or 3 months (whichever comes first) and I don't allow the E85 to store for long periods.

[badbread]

I reached out to one of CA's largest e85 distributors and they provided some great info, more on my blog here www.*************/howie85


Here's an excerpt about California e85

“That is a great question because the labels that we are required to post on the dispensers by different government agencies can be very confusing. While we do have the ability to vary the blend seasonally, in reality, all the E85 we blend in the entire state is calculated to be blended at 83.3% ethanol. We regularly do field testing and the fuel almost always comes back within 1-2% of 83.3%. This little variance can probably be attributed to variances in the evaporation rates of ethanol and gasoline and the fact that a big tank of thousands of gallons might have some variation throughout the tank, much like you might have an alcoholic drink that can be stronger at the bottom or top.

The California Air Resources Board allows us to blend at a rate lower than 83.3% but if we did that then the price of E85 would have to go up about $.20 per gallon because we would then be subject to state excise tax which we are exempt from now. It is a conflict between air pollution regulations and tax laws so it should continue to be 83.3% unless we make a big social media announcement one day, which we do not see on the horizon.

Very rarely, we will have a blend that is not at the 83% (less than 1% of the deliveries). In that case, if it is still legal E85 then we will sell it and put a sign on the pump that says “Attention Racers: This E85 is blended at XX%. This a temporary situation and when this sign is removed it will revert to 83%”. I think that has happened 2-3 times in the history of the company so it is very much the exception. Every once in a while someone will contact us and tell us that the blend percentage is off or we hear chatter on the social media and when we test the fuel almost every time the blend is right near 83%.”
Mike Lewis, CEO of Pearson Fuels

[Continental02]

Originally Posted by badbread

I reached out to one of CA's largest e85 distributors and they provided some great info, more on my blog here www.*************/howie85


Here's an excerpt about California e85

This is awesome, thank you so much for sharing. I reached out to Pearson myself a few weeks ago and received a very generic answer. As someone who uses E85 specifically for the track, it's very comforting to read about the consistency in their fuels.

[Fast4d]

I will be doing a tune in may.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Ethanol is an alcohol fuel and alcohol is hygroscopic, meaning it absorbs moisture. So care must be taken to not allow E85 to sit for long periods or be stored in places exposed to moisture. I don't recommend keeping E85 in your fuel tank for long periods for cars that are being stored or that don't get driven a lot. For the latter, it's best to keep a full tank so as to not have any air in the tank that the E85 could pull moisture from.

This is important information!

Mike

[Race82]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

I have not had a SINGLE issue on my development M4. I follow my own advice and run a tank of pump every 3k miles or 3 months (whichever comes first) and I don't allow the E85 to store for long periods.

How long is too long for it to be stored in the tank? Would a long drive once every 4 weeks or so be ok?

[DuMa M3]

I came from an Evo 9 that ran E85 for 9 years . I did store the car on 93 pump during winters. Only issue I had was running out of fuel due to injector sizing. As you need more E85 compare to pump gas .

[chetrickerman]

Originally Posted by awbmw

How long is too long for it to be stored in the tank? Would a long drive once every 4 weeks or so be ok?

I try not to let the fuel sit for longer than 4 weeks. If it does, I just drive the car without going WOT until that tank is low and I fill up with fresh E85.

[SflBimmer8484]

I had a fuel injector get stuck open while I was religiously using a top lube fuel treatment with every tank. Not exactly sure what caused it but that's the only issue I have run into in about 15k miles. Since then Ive just switched back to a tank of 93oct every e85 2-3 fill ups.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

I had a fuel injector get stuck open while I was religiously using a top lube fuel treatment with every tank. Not exactly sure what caused it but that's the only issue I have run into in about 15k miles. Since then Ive just switched back to a tank of 93oct every e85 2-3 fill ups.

You're like the 3rd or 4th person on the F80/F82 forums whose had fuel injector failure after prolonged use of E85 without cycling through regular pump gas.

Suffice to say, adhering to a 3 month/3,000 mile fuel cycle process is highly important in keeping the injectors from seizing.

[MuffinFlavored]

Originally Posted by nars3000

You're like the 3rd or 4th person on the F80/F82 forums whose had fuel injector failure after prolonged use of E85 without cycling through regular pump gas.

Suffice to say, adhering to a 3 month/3,000 mile fuel cycle process is highly important in keeping the injectors from seizing.

How big of a deal of it for the injector to actually seize? $400 repair, mild inconvenience?

[MuffinFlavored]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

since I was the first tuner in the world to figure out that the S55 could run straight E85 and to reverse engineer the tuning involved to actually make it happen at stock boost, much less these very elevated boost pressures i can tune for now (even on aftermarket turbos).

What goes in to making a tune E85 specific? How do you change what portions, etc.?

[hellokitty]

Originally Posted by MuffinFlavored

How big of a deal of it for the injector to actually seize? $400 repair, mild inconvenience?

I use this in every tank. Certainly feels smoother on my E60 blend.

http://www.starbrite.com/item/star-t...ategory_id=587

[hellokitty]

Originally Posted by MuffinFlavored

What goes in to making a tune E85 specific? How do you change what portions, etc.?

Afr, fuel trims, boost target, ignition advance, etc.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by MuffinFlavored

How big of a deal of it for the injector to actually seize? $400 repair, mild inconvenience?

$1000+ repair cost in the Bay Area.

[SflBimmer8484]

Originally Posted by nars3000

You're like the 3rd or 4th person on the F80/F82 forums whose had fuel injector failure after prolonged use of E85 without cycling through regular pump gas.

Suffice to say, adhering to a 3 month/3,000 mile fuel cycle process is highly important in keeping the injectors from seizing.

I always cycle every 5 tanks or less. Only difference is before I was using a top lube additive as well. Im no longer using that stuff as ive heard it gums up in the bottom of the fuel tank.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke

I always cycle every 5 tanks or less. Only difference is before I was using a top lube additive as well. Im no longer using that stuff as ive heard it gums up in the bottom of the fuel tank.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. It sounded like you ran E85 for 15k miles straight in your previous post.

The GTR guys swear by this product: https://lucasoil.com/products/fuel-t...th-stabilizers