[Ennoch]

So following on from the deer damage thread and the subsequent debacle with the official main dealer bodyshop that's allegedly in the process of being resolved, I have a specific question about EB II paint. Does anyone have note of any specific colour variations in the mix that are listed in BMW's own systems? I've seen anecdotally that there are 3 or 4 in one place, and someone else reference dock importers having upwards of 10 variations for repairing damage. If anyone has info on what BMW say officially, or has painted this colour, I'd be very interested in hearing what you can add.

Essentially the paint they've used on my car has significantly too much red or similar in it which leaves it looking almost violet in some lights. The bodyshop's response is to simply paint more of my car in this clearly wrong colour in an attempt to mask the difference. However, I am pretty sure I will still see it and in any case I'm not happy with them essentially missing out the first step which is properly matching the paint, with the blend simply being a precaution to minimise any small variations in particle laydown etc. It would be nice to have some proper info to head off the amount of nonsense the service manager keeps spouting about it being impossible to match bumpers properly, or blending will resolve it etc as the colour is simply wrong and it's plainly evident they didn't spray any test cards to check variation before diving straight in.

Essentially it needed a bumper, front wing and leading door edge repainted. They hadn't painted the bonnet at all until today, while the entire front door was repainted (despite the SM saying otherwise) too. This means a hard edge from the bonnet to the NSF wing, to the bumper, between the bumper and OSF wing, as well as the NSF door to the sill and the rear door. They did say they would take it back and repaint it, which owing to another issue they're doing sooner than anticipated. However, I fail to see how their approach is going to resolve the other issues!

A few pics for reference (poor I know, I collected it in the dusk so could only view it in their workshop lighting, or outdoor LED streetlamps):

[Bachu1]

There are 2colour code 335 and B45 i believe

As im looking for a touch up pen for mine.

[Eddamoo]

I have a pretty decent, colour calibrated monitor and cant really see an issue in those pics - not sure if others can.

You can see in the first photo that the wing is much redder than the bonnet but its also reflecting at much steeper angle. Where the angles are the same near the camera flash (the pointy bit near the headlight and the bumper) looks the same colour.

It would be good to see some pictures in the daytime in neutral light (ideally a cloudy day with the car parked into the sun) of both sides of the car to allow a comparison to be made between them. This would show us how all the angles are 'supposed' to reflect with the factory paint job.

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by Bachu1

There are 2colour code 335 and B45 i believe

As im looking for a touch up pen for mine.

I believe 335 is the older Estoril Blue, the B45 is for Estoril Blue II that they've used in recent years.

Originally Posted by Eddamoo

You can see in the first photo that the wing is much redder than the bonnet but its also reflecting at much steeper angle. Where the angles are the same near the camera flash (the pointy bit near the headlight and the bumper) looks the same colour.

It would be good to see some pictures in the daytime in neutral light (ideally a cloudy day with the car parked into the sun) of both sides of the car to allow a comparison to be made between them. This would show us how all the angles are 'supposed' to reflect with the factory paint job.

Unfortunately those shots were quickly taken before I handed the car back to the group director for them to fix, so they were rushed and not very good. The red hue only comes into it at certain angles (it just looks too dark no matter what the light), but the problem is that the rest of the paint doesn't have that no matter what angle you look at it from; that angle where the wing and bonnet meet is the same, and therefore the colour at that angle should be the same (irrespective of what angle the rest of the wing is at). That same stark mismatch on the first photo is just as visible going from bumper to bonnet, and from front to rear doors. The photos may not be the best owing to when they were taken but the fact remains the paint match is terrible, and includes significantly more red to it, either as a pearl or base colour. The flash at the angle the leading edge of that photo has simply caused more reflection which is masking the colour differential, rather than it showing the colour to be 'fine'.

Before I even got the car back from the painter they admitted the colour match wasn't correct, so I'm not looking for discussion on whether the colour looks correct on someone's monitor (I also have a colour calibrated monitor I'm looking at them on), simply if anyone has experience of spraying this colour, or working with it and therefore having access to the BMW notes on variations to this code and what they might have done (other than simply messing it up) to lead to where I am now.

Now I know these were taken in daylight, but pre accident you can see the colour change between the flat piece at the top of the wing and the bonnet was negligible, certainly to the naked eye, and this is now not the case, it's massively visible as the tone/hue is incorrect as is the shade so not only does it look darker against the original paint as they haven't taken into account the paint ageing, the tone is also incorrect:

[James-335dx]

If you're having an issue with colour variation between old and new paint it is likely down to the original paint ageing. Metallic finishes are heavily lacquered and it tends to be that lacquer that ages, particularly due to sunlight. It begins to yellow, which on a blue car would not be obvious until you have something else freshly painted.
The yellowing is usually quite obvious on silver cars when they're a few years old which is why matching the paint on them is almost impossible. The lacquer used to finish the plastic parts such as the bumpers is also often different and so you can usually see a defined change in colour between the bumpers and body.

The Focus in Silver has always had this issue.

Simple fix would be to have a professional paint correction done on the car, this will buff off the yellowing surface and you should find the colour will match much better if not perfectly.

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by James-335dx

Simple fix would be to have a professional paint correction done on the car, this will buff off the yellowing surface and you should find the colour will match much better if not perfectly.

That's not going to resolve the issue here as the match is incorrect full stop. It's already buffed and waxed, and that made no change to the colour (I do look after my cars) when I did it (I might not be pro but I know how to do paint correction). A lot of the variation in colour from bumper to body comes down to the paint being electrostatically applied so the underlying material affects the final effect. When bodyshops spray a colour across both metal and plastic, as in my case, there should be no discernible variation as the paint is wet sprayed and thus the underlying material doesn't impact the final colour.

Yes, the paint will have faded from five years, but that's where the skill of the painter should come in to tint the colour as necessary to account for that (most of the fade is pigment fade, not lacquer yellowing). What I'm talking about here is a colour match that is plain wrong, and while I know variations for things like Subaru colours, or Land Rovers, I've never been in this position with a BMW. Therefore I'm specifically looking for the detail from their painting system so when the service manager starts bullshitting me again I can actually drop something in his lap as proof of it.

[James-335dx]

Aaah, you took it to BMW, that's the problem then. They don't have any skill, they'll have just mixed the paint to the OEM spec on their screen and painted it. A proper body shop would have tried to match the paint from the existing and blended the new with the old. BMW don't employ skilled painters or mechanics, they just follow the instructions, take broken part off, put new shiny part on. That's why they call them "Technicians" So I think the issue is they've not done a great job as they've made no attempt to match the existing paintwork or blend it with the existing panels.

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by James-335dx

Aaah, you took it to BMW, that's the problem then. They don't have any skill, they'll have just mixed the paint to the OEM spec on their screen and painted it. A proper body shop would have tried to match the paint from the existing and blended the new with the old. BMW don't employ skilled painters or mechanics, they just follow the instructions, take broken part off, put new shiny part on. That's why they call them "Technicians" So I think the issue is they've not done a great job as they've made no attempt to match the existing paintwork or blend it with the existing panels.

Yup, totally. I wrote most of the saga so far in the deer damage thread but ultimately I went to them for an estimate, partly to keep the warranty, but the dismissiveness of the estimator was such that I did go elsewhere. Unfortunately when he insurance company received an estimate from BMW that was significantly lower than the other place I went to after, they declined the other one. The difference was BMW hadn't included the £1k of broken (internally) headlight, nor had they added in blending or a number of other parts. So unfortunately I was strongarmed into the BMW repair...and obviously that headlamp has now made it onto the car, but only after they handed it back to me on Friday with full beam and the self levelling still not working!

They've clearly taken the base EBII code (and against some 1 series with this colour mine looks lighter) and not tinted it correctly to match the age and particular variation of my paint. I know that no place will get a 100% match, but that's where blending comes in, and why I am really keen to find out how many variations of this colour BMW actually list, just so I can ask them which one they painted it in in front of the director when I go back out to collect it later this week. Sure, not every customer would be picky about the paint but it's a bloody expensive car that I've only owned a few weeks and its not as if they're not charging my insurance company a lot of money for the privilege of the work, therefore I expect it to be done right. But yeah, the proper local bodyshop would have been the better bet.

[James-335dx]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

Yup, totally. I wrote most of the saga so far in the deer damage thread but ultimately I went to them for an estimate, partly to keep the warranty, but the dismissiveness of the estimator was such that I did go elsewhere. Unfortunately when he insurance company received an estimate from BMW that was significantly lower than the other place I went to after, they declined the other one. The difference was BMW hadn't included the £1k of broken (internally) headlight, nor had they added in blending or a number of other parts. So unfortunately I was strongarmed into the BMW repair...and obviously that headlamp has now made it onto the car, but only after they handed it back to me on Friday with full beam and the self levelling still not working!

They've clearly taken the base EBII code (and against some 1 series with this colour mine looks lighter) and not tinted it correctly to match the age and particular variation of my paint. I know that no place will get a 100% match, but that's where blending comes in, and why I am really keen to find out how many variations of this colour BMW actually list, just so I can ask them which one they painted it in in front of the director when I go back out to collect it later this week. Sure, not every customer would be picky about the paint but it's a bloody expensive car that I've only owned a few weeks and its not as if they're not charging my insurance company a lot of money for the privilege of the work, therefore I expect it to be done right. But yeah, the proper local bodyshop would have been the better bet.

Yeah that makes sense then. I assumed it was the insurance that had pushed you in that direction. I guess their system of quoting for half a job helps them win the business. Hope you get it sorted but you could also try going through your insurer as if you're not happy with the work that's been done as they should be on your side as they're paying for it. If it was me I'd probably take it to skilled body shop and ask them about the process and possible colour options etc. They may even be happy to put something in writing for you as an "independent" expert

[Techno 9000]

Used to know an excellent car body man. Have never seen so many variations of 'paint chip' as when he quoting for a job to pretty it up a Saab I had . At least seven variations of the solid black it was painted in. Some were quickly dismissed, then it was down to two that were really, really close. The finished job was imperceptible to the rest of the car, apart from a total lack of imperfections that is.

I've never since found such a perfectionist since he retired.

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by Techno 9000

Used to know an excellent car body man. Have never seen so many variations of 'paint chip' as when he quoting for a job to pretty it up a Saab I had . At least seven variations of the solid black it was painted in. Some were quickly dismissed, then it was down to two that were really, really close. The finished job was imperceptible to the rest of the car, apart from a total lack of imperfections that is.

I've never since found such a perfectionist since he retired.

There are some great guys who can match 40 year old paint perfectly but unfortunately most of these places simply operate on paint code and don't begin to think of the ageing process, or that there are multiple variations within that paint code, not least their own hand when mixing small amounts of additional toners and metallics etc with a set of scales!

[Rhino at Work]

Originally Posted by Bachu1

There are 2colour code 335 and B45 i believe

As im looking for a touch up pen for mine.

The VIN Decoder reports for both mine list the colour as B45.

[jackstrath]

B45 is your EB, the 335 EB is from 2002 so wont be on a F3X There is a WB45 but im 99% sure its exactly the same as B45.

If its a bmw approved body shop its more than likely going to be Glasurt paint, and from my experience the match's are normally pretty good. The normally have 3 shades, a base,light and then dark

Il echo eddamoo in the fact we need some daylight photos. Nighttime pics always seem to make the colour matches look far worse than they are in real life.

How old is the car?

Il agree that it does seem to have a bit to much "red" in it.

Edit: also worth noting the way the metallic drys has a massive effect on colour, hence why your plastic bumpers normally look a different colour even if the paint is all from the same mix, the plastic heats and cools differently from the metal panels and the way the metallic sits and drys can change the appearance of the colour.

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by jackstrath

B45 is your EB, the 335 EB is from 2002 so wont be on a F3X There is a WB45 but im 99% sure its exactly the same as B45.

If its a bmw approved body shop its more than likely going to be Glasurt paint, and from my experience the match's are normally pretty good. The normally have 3 shades, a base,light and then dark

Il echo eddamoo in the fact we need some daylight photos. Nighttime pics always seem to make the colour matches look far worse than they are in real life.

How old is the car?

Il agree that it does seem to have a bit to much "red" in it.

Edit: also worth noting the way the metallic drys has a massive effect on colour, hence why your plastic bumpers normally look a different colour even if the paint is all from the same mix, the plastic heats and cools differently from the metal panels and the way the metallic sits and drys can change the appearance of the colour.

I believe it is Glasurit, yeah. Ironically the match they achieved between the bumper they painted and the adjacent passenger side wing is absolutely perfect with no visible difference in tone or shade between them! The purple photo is definitely exacerbating the difference but it is still very, very noticeable - I mean the bodyshop did say they would get it back in to sort it, so even they know it's a problem. I just very much disagree with their apparent method for sorting it!

The car's 2015 and only 30k so not old, and prior to this the paint was perfect - the match between the front and rear passenger side doors is terrible so the material difference causing colour differentiation is a bit of a red herring in this instance, they just used the wrong mix! Someone else mentioned elsewhere that the BMW system is called white label which has mpv1, mpv2 etc (most preferred variant). Is this the Glasurit system, or something different?

[Bigfish786]

My 68 plate Estoril Blue 335d has a similar thing, where the rear bumper looks more violet in certain light. LED lights seem to make it look worse. You can just about make it out on the pictures.

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by Bigfish786

My 68 plate Estoril Blue 335d has a similar thing, where the rear bumper looks more violet in certain light. LED lights seem to make it look worse. You can just about make it out on the pictures.

That certainly looks worse than the average bumper mismatch, but a lot better than mine did in the flesh!

An update is that I've had the brake bleed, headlamp coding and EGR recall all completed today as well as a complimentary health check (ha ha ha, guess the amount they found as 'necessary work'). It's ready for me when I get back on Friday. The girl on the service desk (who has been very helpful throughout all this) arranged for someone to do a video of the car before it was collected by the paint shop but unfortunately it was filmed by someone with ADHD while waving a glow stick around at a rave so it was useless. However, the service manager from the paint shop assures me he is 'more than happy with the paintwork now'...which obviously counts for nothing based on the value of his word so far!! Oh well, 36hrs will tell how well they've managed on take two...

[NISFAN]

F30AM, is that really you?

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

F30AM, is that really you?

?

[ZedsRedBaby]

If it helps I ran the colour picker over it in Photoshop and there is definitely more red in the wing than the bonnet in your second photo, although tbh I couldn't tell just by looking at it.

[djcowlin]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

?

Do a forum search for all threads started by that username, and (if you have the time!) read them in chronological sequence. All will be revealed.

[Ennoch]

Originally Posted by djcowlin

Do a forum search for all threads started by that username, and (if you have the time!) read them in chronological sequence. All will be revealed.

I did a search, I flicked through...seems a guy who liked wasting time towards the end and getting a rise out of people so I'm not sure what relevance there is with his mention on this thread?

Originally Posted by ZedsRedBaby

If it helps I ran the colour picker over it in Photoshop and there is definitely more red in the wing than the bonnet in your second photo, although tbh I couldn't tell just by looking at it.

Cheers. Yeah, I did the same on the new paint to see as it's less obvious in the flesh than the first attempt. I do think it's something that some people are more sensitive to others, and you either can see it obviously or genuinely can't. To me it sticks out like a sore thumb but then I know that I have a pretty sensitive eye for colour transitions.

I do now have the car back. The F31 definitely feels coarser and louder, and older than the G20 I had for the week...

Overall I'm still not happy with things. It's predominantly much better than it was last week, but that isn't the same thing as saying it's a good enough job. They allegedly used an MPV but it took me six times of asking to have the service manager actually answer my question, which pretty much continues as a them with him. He even went as far as showing me their cans of paint which say 'BMW' on them, without actually answering my question. I don't like people lying to me, I don't like people bullshitting me by telling me what they think I want to hear, and I don't like people being evasive. He has the manner of a back street dodgy trader trying to sell cars for £500.

The car was wet when I arrived (dodgy trader trick no.1) so I asked for them to get it dried off. After a panel of watching the guy waving a dirty chamois back and forth I ask him to let me do its which didn't do much to endear me to him I'm sure. It explains why even fresh paint from them has marks on it! It's certainly clear that there is a paint match issue between the sill and rear NS door where it hits the front door and the front wing. Where they've blended the bonnet and bumper into the OS front wing it's an imperceptible change. They're adamant that they didn't paint all of the front door and only lacquered to the edge but as there's no discernible pigment change across the door I'm dubious of this statement. They're clearly unwilling and/or unwilling to ensure there's a seamless blend across the car. As it is it's stark, although they allegedly can't see anything and 'that's what the pearl is supposed to do'. It's telling that the bodyshop can't see the difference yet a straw poll by showing a couple of friends yesterday, neither of who had knowledge of where the car was hit or what repairs were carried out, were able to spot the issue. So the next step is to escalate it back to the director and accident repair manager, neither of whom were available yesterday. It's frustrating that the two 'managers' I was speaking to yesterday were so intent on telling me outright lies about paint and ignoring the true issue, as well as avoiding answering. This frustrated me as much as the paint. Nor have they even made an attempt at an apology for handing a car back with a headlight not working. I'm also not convinced the headlamps have been setup properly as they seem rather slow and dim-witted to turn back on when oncoming traffic has passed, and they seem to be aimed very low with the cut off very close to the front of the car. That said I'm not sure how much of this is misremembering what they were like, or perhaps just getting used to the LED's on the G20!

Oh, and the all the white leather in the front was handed back like Fred Dibnah had spent the week living in them while demolishing a chimney. They were immaculate before handing the car in. This seems to be par from the course from this place:

[ZedsRedBaby]

Originally Posted by Ennoch

I did a search, I flicked through...seems a guy who liked wasting time towards the end and getting a rise out of people so I'm not sure what relevance there is with his mention on this thread?

Cheers. Yeah, I did the same on the new paint to see as it's less obvious in the flesh than the first attempt. I do think it's something that some people are more sensitive to others, and you either can see it obviously or genuinely can't. To me it sticks out like a sore thumb but then I know that I have a pretty sensitive eye for colour transitions.

I do now have the car back. The F31 definitely feels coarser and louder, and older than the G20 I had for the week...

Overall I'm still not happy with things. It's predominantly much better than it was last week, but that isn't the same thing as saying it's a good enough job. They allegedly used an MPV but it took me six times of asking to have the service manager actually answer my question, which pretty much continues as a them with him. He even went as far as showing me their cans of paint which say 'BMW' on them, without actually answering my question. I don't like people lying to me, I don't like people bullshitting me by telling me what they think I want to hear, and I don't like people being evasive. He has the manner of a back street dodgy trader trying to sell cars for £500.

The car was wet when I arrived (dodgy trader trick no.1) so I asked for them to get it dried off. After a panel of watching the guy waving a dirty chamois back and forth I ask him to let me do its which didn't do much to endear me to him I'm sure. It explains why even fresh paint from them has marks on it! It's certainly clear that there is a paint match issue between the sill and rear NS door where it hits the front door and the front wing. Where they've blended the bonnet and bumper into the OS front wing it's an imperceptible change. They're adamant that they didn't paint all of the front door and only lacquered to the edge but as there's no discernible pigment change across the door I'm dubious of this statement. They're clearly unwilling and/or unwilling to ensure there's a seamless blend across the car. As it is it's stark, although they allegedly can't see anything and 'that's what the pearl is supposed to do'. It's telling that the bodyshop can't see the difference yet a straw poll by showing a couple of friends yesterday, neither of who had knowledge of where the car was hit or what repairs were carried out, were able to spot the issue. So the next step is to escalate it back to the director and accident repair manager, neither of whom were available yesterday. It's frustrating that the two 'managers' I was speaking to yesterday were so intent on telling me outright lies about paint and ignoring the true issue, as well as avoiding answering. This frustrated me as much as the paint. Nor have they even made an attempt at an apology for handing a car back with a headlight not working. I'm also not convinced the headlamps have been setup properly as they seem rather slow and dim-witted to turn back on when oncoming traffic has passed, and they seem to be aimed very low with the cut off very close to the front of the car. That said I'm not sure how much of this is misremembering what they were like, or perhaps just getting used to the LED's on the G20!

Oh, and the all the white leather in the front was handed back like Fred Dibnah had spent the week living in them while demolishing a chimney. They were immaculate before handing the car in. This seems to be par from the course from this place:

I feel for you mate. I had an insurance approved bodyshop do a crap job on my beloved Ford Cougar many years ago (stop laughing, the back seat saw plenty of action). In the end I couldn't be arsed to argue any more and I got rid of the car. I hope you get a better outcome.