[Spa2k]

Is all of this angst due to a bad translation?

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/bm...t-translation/

[stefan]

That sounds about right. But on the other hand he is quite clearly pointing out that demand needs to be significant to justify manual variants. If demand drops, which it will and is, then it makes sense to see manuals disappear.

[McPurrs]

Dealers need to stop ordering so many DCTs

[HPIA4v2]

The interesting question would be.....if in 2019 or 2020, DCT becomes std option (no cost) would anyone still order MT?

[WFS]

Originally Posted by HPIA4v2

The interesting question would be.....if in 2019 or 2020, DCT becomes std option (no cost) would anyone still order MT?

thats what has happened with the new Porsche GT3, PDK is standard, but they will fit manual as a no cost (read that as no discount for manual) and people are still ordering them.

I would still order manual.

[Tag]

It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. It's going to happen weather we like it or not and next on the list to go is the ICE.

Much of the new tech is no longer a hypothetical ten or more years out pipe dream, it's literally coming next year or the year after that. Porsche and a few others maybe able to cater to niche groups and will charge a premium to do it. If you think things are getting bad now, just wait. The majority of automakers (BMW included) are moving towards fully autonomous vehicles, and by that I mean there will eventually be no steering wheel, accelerator pedal, etc. You won't be a driver anymore, just a passenger.

A "fully" autonomous vehicle is a ways out, but make no mistake everything else will suffer while it's being proven, because of it. As we've already seen with electric steering. Autonomous vehicles aren't meant for sporty anything, they won't be designed as such. What that means is we'll see less and less sports/sporty cars from major manufacturers going forward. The R&D will simply cost too much since they cannot use existing parts that are already developed. We're already seeing lots of manufacturers teaming up to build cars, because it helps them share the tremendous cost of R&D.

TL;DR... Get them while you can and hold onto them!

[CosmosMpower]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by CosmosMpower

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

And yes, that means sleeping while you drive will be okay!

[akkando]

Originally Posted by McPurrs

Dealers need to stop ordering so many DCTs

They are running a business though so they are going to order what they make more profit on and what they can sell fast.

[Ian ///M]

I'm a fan of revmatch manualmatics

[boostm3]

Just read an article in Car and Driver that the '18 M5 is being made with an 8 speed automatic only. I would have thought that all M cars would at least be exempt from losing their manuals. Guess that is not the case. Would they dare remove them from the M2,3, and 4s? Sounds like heresy, but could be that with the M5 the writing is on the wall.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by HPIA4v2

The interesting question would be.....if in 2019 or 2020, DCT becomes std option (no cost) would anyone still order MT?

Well of course people would still buy a manual if they were the same price... do you seriously think that all people that buy a manual are too " cheap " to buy a DCT-matic? ???

Or perhaps you feel that people don't recognize all the tech in the *faster * automatic box ?

Are you are a German manufacturer?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by boostm3

Just read an article in Car and Driver that the '18 M5 is being made with an 8 speed automatic only. I would have thought that all M cars would at least be exempt from losing their manuals. Guess that is not the case. Would they dare remove them from the M2,3, and 4s? Sounds like heresy, but could be that with the M5 the writing is on the wall.

BMW has been threatening to eliminate the manual in the M5 the last two generations.

The US market has resisted and they have kept a manual until now , however they changed from citing take rate to claiming that the 600 FT-LB of torque is too much for the manual drivetrain or a mere ordinary driver to control.

What also really contributed to the M5 manual going away is vehicle size. It's a 7 series in size and that model hasn't had a manual for decades.


BMW has also been trying to kill the manual gearbox in all other M cars by pushing the DCT-MATIC in advertising, by the dealers ordering and stocking them in ever larger numbers, and by making erroneous statements to the buying public that the " manual take rate " is dropping.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

BMW has been threatening to eliminate the manual in the M5 the last two generations.

The US market has resisted and they have kept a manual until now , however they changed from citing take rate to claiming that the 600 FT-LB of torque is too much for the manual drivetrain or a mere ordinary driver to control.

What also really contributed to the M5 manual going away is vehicle size. It's a 7 series in size and that model hasn't had a manual for decades.


BMW has also been trying to kill the manual gearbox in all other M cars by pushing the DCT-MATIC in advertising, by the dealers ordering and stocking them in ever larger numbers, and by making erroneous statements to the buying public that the " manual take rate " is dropping.

I agree with all that.. and they removed it from the M5 around 2006 I believe only to bring it back the following year.

But regardless of what they tell the public, internally, wouldnt you think theyd be afraid of losing a lot of customers to Audi and MB if all they offered was an automatic? Surely, a lot of their business must come from performance car devotees who buy BMW at least in some measure, because theyre the only German car maker offering Stick on their performance models. Would the savings in mfg costs by eliminating the stick really justify eliminating what their internal numbers must show: that manual transmission is a key feature contributing to M model sales?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by boostm3

I agree with all that.. and they removed it from the M5 around 2006 I believe only to bring it back the following year.

But regardless of what they tell the public, internally, wouldnt you think theyd be afraid of losing a lot of customers to Audi and MB if all they offered was an automatic? Surely, a lot of their business must come from performance car devotees who buy BMW at least in some measure, because theyre the only German car maker offering Stick on their performance models. Would the savings in mfg costs by eliminating the stick really justify eliminating what their internal numbers must show: that manual transmission is a key feature contributing to M model sales?

I think it comes more down to costs and packaging unfortunately, as well as a dogged focus on technology, as well as lap times. I agree with you .. Porsche and BMW have indeed come back to the pack with Mercedes due to the fact that the automatic gearbox is now faster than the manual gearbox. And once you have an automatic as the main focus of the car then you begin to become more like the competition and luxury becomes the focus more over sporting performance.

I'm all in favor of a DCT as a faster version of an automatic transmission, but not to the exclusion of a manual transmission .. because I enjoy the physical control over the machine. Porsche has seen and heard the wrath from performance drivers and begun to now tout that they have a manual gearbox in the 911 again.

Formula one racing has inspired many Europeans to go with paddle boxes. However when I watch most racing on television I see drivers shifting manual transmissions in much more places than I see DCT

[akkando]

Originally Posted by boostm3

Just read an article in Car and Driver that the '18 M5 is being made with an 8 speed automatic only. I would have thought that all M cars would at least be exempt from losing their manuals. Guess that is not the case. Would they dare remove them from the M2,3, and 4s? Sounds like heresy, but could be that with the M5 the writing is on the wall.

Honestly if they went automatic standard on next gen Ms I would think they would test the waters with some sort of special edition manual only M car that has a premium price. If that does well then they just keep creating new limited edition premium priced M cars with manuals until it's not worth it.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by boostm3

Just read an article in Car and Driver that the '18 M5 is being made with an 8 speed automatic only. I would have thought that all M cars would at least be exempt from losing their manuals. Guess that is not the case. Would they dare remove them from the M2,3, and 4s? Sounds like heresy, but could be that with the M5 the writing is on the wall.

I have sat inside of the next gen M5 (F90). No M-DCT, but indeed 8-speed automatic. Also features M xDrive (2WD, 4WD, 4WD Sport). I also spoke with someone who has driven it already: it's a very fast puppy - he was impressed by its power output.

So not only the future demise of manuals, but also of M-DCT.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by WFS

thats what has happened with the new Porsche GT3, PDK is standard, but they will fit manual as a no cost (read that as no discount for manual) and people are still ordering them.
I would still order manual.

Expectations for the new 911 GT3 6MT:

"It also gave chance to revisit discussion of the manual option with Andreas Preuninger. I start, cheekily, by reminding him that at the launch of the previous GT3 the PDK-only decision was pitched as a big improvement, largely on the basis of its faster lap times. "Well it is still faster on track," Preuninger says, "but lap times aren't everything, are they?" Preuninger stresses his ambition has always been to offer transmission choice - "like whether you take the ceramic brakes" - but limited development resources restricted what was possible. But he admits the PDK-only GT3 displeased some traditional buyers, with the huge popularity of the manual-only Cayman GT4 - and an increase in engineering resources - making the case. This was initially used in the 911 R, but the plan was always to spread the costs by offering it in the GT3 as well. Preuninger says he doesn't know how many people will opt for the manual - a zero-cost option tick in most territories - but reckons it could be as high as a third of production. "If it's less than 20 per cent then I'm in trouble," he admits."
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...l-review/36190

[pruettfan]

Originally Posted by McPurrs

Dealers need to stop ordering so many DCTs

Dealers order what sells. When I went to order my car last year one dealer wanted a higher deposit if I ordered a manual because they said they don't move very well, not sure that is the case for the M2 but it is likely the case for the M3/4 as most folks these days prefer an automated transmission.

[McPurrs]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Dealers order what sells. When I went to order my car last year one dealer wanted a higher deposit if I ordered a manual because they said they don't move very well, not sure that is the case for the M2 but it is likely the case for the M3/4 as most folks these days prefer an automated transmission.

Source? Yea I didn't think so. The only way to answer who prefers what is based on custom orders only. You have to ignore all other sales since the dealer ordered those. Some people buy what is in front of them. And even if you base it on custom orders only, that's only going to be so accurate as it is. The next problem is running a poll. People pick what they have to justify it in their own head, happens all the time. So I go back to custom orders only to determine what the base of customers that specifically want a specific car, choose. Which is likely why the M2 has limited availability as such. It is being watched closely. It is much easier to run a study on a lower price point vehicle than a high price point vehicle. Realistically you should get more sales and be able to complete your study faster.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Dealers order what sells. When I went to order my car last year one dealer wanted a higher deposit if I ordered a manual because they said they don't move very well, not sure that is the case for the M2 but it is likely the case for the M3/4 as most folks these days prefer an automated transmission.

Comparisons aren't always appropriate, but nevertheless: look at what happened to Blackberry. Go visit the smartphone accessories department in your nearby electro shop: lots of accessories for iPhone and Samsung - limited accessories for Blackberry. And also because of low supply (apart from the technology itself getting outpaced by the competition), many customers gave up on Blackberry and switched to other brands. As dealers expect low sales of Blackberry accessories, they don't order those anymore (or in very low quantities). And this way, sales spiral down: the self-fulfilling prophecy of the demise accelerated by dealers.

As BMW customers, we are nowadays kindly 'whisked away' from manual gearboxes. A 20% take-rate seems to be the critical minimum for survival.

I recently did a "BMW M Intensive Training" course: constantly hopping in and out of M2 and M4 training vehicles. Number of manual gearboxes: zero.