11-04-2021, 06:45 PM | #4797 | ||
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Many points to address. This is all for discussion; I'm not calling out anyone.
30+ years of police training. Police departments aren't known for keeping up with the changing training environment. I shoot in a just-for-fun LEO league with a bunch of cops. I've also shot IDPA and USPSA with cops. As a general rule, the average cop sucks at shooting. Quote:
What you might not be seeing/getting is proper sight alignment, but you should be pretty close. With proper training and practice, you'll be very close to sight alignment and sight picture even when you are shooting at max speed/ability. Quote:
Which brings me to the term "center mass." The proper term is center of mass and you shouldn't be aiming for the center of mass. The center of the mass of an adult human is close to the belly button, not the high chest area. You/we should be aiming to hit in the high thoracic cavity. That is where all the really important bits are: heart, lungs, aorta, etc. Putting rounds in that area is much more likely to result in physiological damage that will stop the man as opposed to shooting the same man in the gut. If you can take the time to aim your shots so that you are "spreading the trauma," then you can take your time to put your rounds into the heart/lungs/arteries. Pistols are poor fight stoppers. The vast majority of people shot with a handgun survive. The vast majority of people who stop fighting after being shot with a handgun stopped fighting because they quit psychologically, not physiologically. In other words, their fight emotion quit even though their bodies were still able to fight. All of the above leads to this: Use enough sight picture to allow you to put hits on target. Your target should be the thoracic cavity. Pistol rounds don't make "one shot stops." You'll need to put multiple rounds on target to increase your chance of stopping the fight. To get multiple quick hits on target, you need to have a sight picture. How fine that sight picture needs to be depends on the size of the target and how much time you have. If you are a law enforcement officer and you are point shooting when you don't have to, you are a liability to innocent bystanders and your department. |
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11-04-2021, 07:40 PM | #4798 | |||||
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IDPA, USPSA and similar training programs are great tools, but I stand by my original statement. Training in live-fire scenarios is a different ball game, especially when you are required to divide your attention and react to the threat that could come from any direction in the environment. Quote:
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At what point did anybody suggest any of this??!?! |
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11-04-2021, 08:15 PM | #4799 | |
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Getting range time in this area is darn near impossible. All of the sportsman/gun clubs with ranges are full with decade-long waiting lists for new members, and limit the number of guests that a member can bring every year. There is an indoor pistol-only range a few towns over, which is where my DW and I do all of our practice. I'd love to put a few rounds through my NY State-legal "ugly stick" AR-15, but that is probably not going to happen without a road trip.....
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11-04-2021, 08:36 PM | #4800 | ||
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11-04-2021, 08:51 PM | #4801 |
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FYI, the A/B/C pillars of a motor vehicle offer legitimate cover (…albeit slim, providing maybe 6-8" of cover). We performed the same test on a vehicle that another department performed which consisted of firing over 100 rounds into the B-pillar utilizing an AR15 loaded with 5.56 rounds. Approximately 156 rounds were fired into the side of an Explorer and not one penetrated the other side.
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11-04-2021, 09:12 PM | #4802 | |
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I don't know what ammo you were using, but I've seen 5.56 go through the B pillar and the other side of the car. Same with 9mm. Seems to be based more on the construction of the car and less on the bullet. And luck. Cars do weird things to bullets. In classes with Kyle Lamb at the Sig Sauer Academy, we shot a variety of calibers and bullet types through cars. Some make it all the way to the other side of the car, some don't. |
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11-04-2021, 09:16 PM | #4803 | ||
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11-04-2021, 09:31 PM | #4804 | |
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As a LEO, you are held to a higher standard, as you should be. You should be attempting to use a proper sight picture and sight alignment when you are able. If you are grappling with a suspect and you can't physically do that, then I understand that an "un-aimed" shot is appropriate, but everyone of your bullets has a lawyer attached to it who is looking for a reason to blame you. And in today's climate, the cop is a target. "we are trained to shoot the entire area from neck to belly bottom, shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip" Really? You're happy with just hitting anywhere on the torso? You don't want to try to do better? You're happy with lower standards? Why not train to hit anywhere on the body? If you are trained and graded to hit anywhere on the torso then what do you think happens in real life? Do you think you will do better when it matters, or worse? Do you think you will be able to make the shot when it counts? Will you be able to actually use your training? Your sights? If a proper sight picture isn't important for the common distance of OIS, do you train for that? Do you train in point shooting? Does your department or the California POST recommend that technique? I've never heard a person say "I shoot too accurately." |
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11-04-2021, 09:40 PM | #4805 | |
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What I've learned shooting into and out of cars: cars may be cover. It really depends. The B pillar itself is only a few inches wide, but it is thicker than air. And if you ever need to shoot through a vehicle, use P for Plenty. Shoot a bunch of rounds in the hope that some make it through. |
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11-04-2021, 09:51 PM | #4806 | ||
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Yes, we are trained to shoot in that general area as it's considered a good hit. Sure, there are more accuracy points awarded depending on impact zone (…when we are qualifying), but in a self defense situation, a good hit is a good hit. I would love to put you through a scenario and see how you do. You might be surprised. |
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11-05-2021, 07:08 AM | #4807 | |
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11-05-2021, 07:11 AM | #4808 | |
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11-05-2021, 07:31 AM | #4809 | |
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The point is the training and reality is that this is more than any range shooting, so when I said you don't get a perfect sight picture this is what I was referring too. We trained to identify the threat, react, decide and discharge our firearm in short order. Winning the fight means stopping the threat, so getting rounds on target as quickly as possible is the objective. If you are shooting at a close range, obtaining a proper sight picture is likely not a great possibility if you want to survive. Practice to improve all of your skills is important because what will happen in this situation is that you will rely on muscle memory as you likely won't have the time to do all those things consciously. As I said earlier, we often trained shooting in a dark range, with a set of roof lights providing our only light source, we would get a two or three second target exposure and be expected to issue the police challenge (create positive witnesses) or to fire a number of rounds before the target turned away. Some of this training involved shooting from the hip, zero sight picture, complete instinctive shooting. The idea being is to develop confidence with your firearm and try to prepare to win any fight you might find yourself in. I will agree lots of cops don't shoot enough and aren't particularly good at it. They should be but as long as they qualify that's what's required. Having said that as was mentioned earlier, most people who shoot aren't terribly proficient with their tools, they might be confident but that isn't the same thing. Go to any range and this point will be bourn out quickly. |
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11-05-2021, 10:13 AM | #4810 | ||
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11-05-2021, 11:53 AM | #4811 | |
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I did go as an invited guest to a "friend of a friend" private range on a nearby farm one time. The owner makes a call to the local police beforehand as a heads-up, and sometimes they show up to partake in the activities. I blame an hour in the sun that day for my subsequent 7-week hospital stay, and have not tried to get another invitation since.....
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11-05-2021, 12:00 PM | #4812 | ||
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11-05-2021, 12:20 PM | #4813 |
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I have yet to check the South Carolina laws, to see if I can set one up on our 5-acre retirement property. There's a natural backstop, so it wouldn't be a major project outside of cashing in early on the harvest of a few southern pine trees (the lot is currently a tree farm!) to clear a 100 yard lane.
Definitely a no-go in NY State, unless you have a *lot* of land to get the required spacings/buffers. We live surrounded by thousands of acres of county and state forests, and the town/state police would be here in minutes if someone discharged a firearm in our back yard. Given how difficult it was to get the coveted "golden ticket" (unrestricted CCW), the LAST thing that I want to do is make waves with the area LEO community.....
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11-06-2021, 10:03 PM | #4814 |
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Today was a good day….
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11-06-2021, 10:37 PM | #4815 |
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11-06-2021, 11:03 PM | #4816 |
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My beat partner obs a car occupied by three males parked [facing the wrong direction] in a high crime area (…possibly casing). A DMV records check revealed the registration was expired nearly six months, so my partner - who had a civilian ride-along with him - effected a traffic stop. During a pat down of the driver at the hood of the patrol car, my partner found a gun in his waistband. My partner requested back-up and we rolled Code 3 to his location to extract the regaining passengers out at gunpoint.
The civilian was pretty shook up and was hiding behind a patrol unit. It got real! |
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11-07-2021, 01:07 AM | #4817 |
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11-07-2021, 09:31 AM | #4818 |
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