[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by gblansten

This thread is deeply amusing as an exposition for those amongst us who suffer from crippling fears and anxieties.

And yet, generalized anxiety disorder is very treatable. There is no reason for so many of you to stay so brutally fearful.

Life is good.

As the saying goes 'there is nothing to fear but fear itself' but how fear is seen by ppl is another matter.
As far as EV's are concerned there is another 'fools rush in where angels fear to tread' which stands out in red letters to me.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gblansten

This thread is deeply amusing as an exposition for those amongst us who suffer from crippling fears and anxieties.

And yet, generalized anxiety disorder is very treatable. There is no reason for so many of you to stay so brutally fearful.

Life is good.

I'll get us back on track. I see no point to buying an expensive vehicle that has a low range vs. recharge ratio, especially since the ratio is significantly variable dependent upon the weather. None of that is fear, rather its just common sense.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by JimmyTheHand

Depends on frequency - but for lower frequencies most likely which I suspect most of what is being measured

Engineering jokes don't go over so well; I was pretty much being sarcastic. I doubt there is any real concern with magnetic fields in any EV.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll get us back on track. I see no point to buying an expensive vehicle that has a low range vs. recharge ratio, especially since the ratio is significantly variable dependent upon the weather. None of that is fear, rather its just common sense.

I think it’s clear I’m not responding to that. Very clear.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Unfortunately, neuroses seem broadly applied to both ends of the spectrum. That EMF stuff ranks up there with the Zyklon B.

It's all fun and games until you start pissing neon green.

[Equilibrandt]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll get us back on track. I see no point to buying an expensive vehicle that has a low range vs. recharge ratio, especially since the ratio is significantly variable dependent upon the weather. None of that is fear, rather its just common sense.

These are points I could absolutely agree with. It's known that supercharging/DC charging is way worse for the battery in the long term. Fast, hot charges are what kill usable storage quickly and deeply affect the resale value of the car.

And that's where I fall in line with y'all: range anxiety that's only alleviated by Level3 DC charging (which will incrementally degrade the battery), exacerbated by the fear of charging past 80% repeatedly at home, all to protect the value of a depreciating asset.

It's easy for me to consider a brand new EV, with a warranty, in sunny California where temperature doesn't have any effect on my supposed car. I could charge to 80% every night at home, nice and slow at 240V, for 24 cents a kWh.

But I can't imagine what I'd do if I was renting an apartment, still, and only had access to fast charging, which probably costs similar if not more than gas, while knowingly harming my car. Nor what I'd do if I were in Canada, watching my estimated range get nerfed for more than half the year. I don't hop in the Miata and romp on it until it's warmed up; can't expect the average consumer to not experience anxiety about knowingly (or blissfully ignoring) that they're slowly killing their capacity. All valid concerns. But we differ from where to go from there: I always think it makes more sense to continue to experience and see these issues as a form of progress; it's not a reason to stop here.

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by RM7

How does he use the internet if he’s so afraid of EM radiation?

The is still one thing called cable connection with RJ45 No need to be on internet using Wifi connection.

[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Back in the 80s a VCR costs $200, and a TV cost over 1000 (before adjusted for inflation) A cell phone was thousands, and calculator hundreds.

You don't have to trust anything, but it seems like you trust all these products are safe without doing any research or testing for yourself. And since I have (and clearly you have not) you want to s**t over all the links, equipment and methodology used without providing anything of value.

I have a degree in Electronic Engineering, I have worked on radars and other related microwave equipment and spent a fair amount of time with electronic measurement equipmet - I suspect I have forgotten far more about the subject than you have learnt.

[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Engineering jokes don't go over so well; I was pretty much being sarcastic. I doubt there is any real concern with magnetic fields in any EV.

np - the trouble is some people get paranoid about things they don't understand

I'd be much more worried about a Tesla's FSD/Driver assists mistaking something solid than the EM in a car. Though with latest news from Tesla about head count reduction I'd be even less inclined to buy one - I think probably you'd have to pay me to take it and not expect much use (but then I've driven about 5,000 miles since 2020)

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by JimmyTheHand

np - the trouble is some people get paranoid about things they don't understand

I'd be much more worried about a Tesla's FSD/Driver assists mistaking something solid than the EM in a car. Though with latest news from Tesla about head count reduction I'd be even less inclined to buy one - I think probably you'd have to pay me to take it and not expect much use (but then I've driven about 5,000 miles since 2020)

Agree. Not now, but up to 2022 I was in a business doing very large scale safety-of-life systems integration for the past 15 years. Software is nowhere near perfect and redundant hardware reliablibilty at a cost point that makes self driving anywhere near safe in a $40,000 automobile doesn't exist. The near autonomous Google pods that self-drive around Silicon Valley have goofy-ass-looking sensor suites that are impractical for private ownership and those cars still hit things, animals, and humans. The tech can probably get there eventually, but affordability is the real question.

[eugenebmw]

Montreal-area Tesla owner frustrated after accident using driving app

I will never park my G82 next to or close to those called smart cars. Don't worry, I will stay away from you guys

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by JimmyTheHand

I have a degree in Electronic Engineering, I have worked on radars and other related microwave equipment and spent a fair amount of time with electronic measurement equipmet - I suspect I have forgotten far more about the subject than you have learnt.

Ok.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Montreal-area Tesla owner frustrated after accident using driving app

I will never park my G82 next to or close to those called smart cars. Don't worry, I will stay away from you guys

Tes owner in trouble if the bumped Jag owner decides to sue with the 'call up my Tes to come to me' feature not lawful on public land and public car parks.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Equilibrandt

These are points I could absolutely agree with. It's known that supercharging/DC charging is way worse for the battery in the long term. Fast, hot charges are what kill usable storage quickly and deeply affect the resale value of the car.

And that's where I fall in line with y'all: range anxiety that's only alleviated by Level3 DC charging (which will incrementally degrade the battery), exacerbated by the fear of charging past 80% repeatedly at home, all to protect the value of a depreciating asset.

It's easy for me to consider a brand new EV, with a warranty, in sunny California where temperature doesn't have any effect on my supposed car. I could charge to 80% every night at home, nice and slow at 240V, for 24 cents a kWh.

But I can't imagine what I'd do if I was renting an apartment, still, and only had access to fast charging, which probably costs similar if not more than gas, while knowingly harming my car. Nor what I'd do if I were in Canada, watching my estimated range get nerfed for more than half the year. I don't hop in the Miata and romp on it until it's warmed up; can't expect the average consumer to not experience anxiety about knowingly (or blissfully ignoring) that they're slowly killing their capacity. All valid concerns. But we differ from where to go from there: I always think it makes more sense to continue to experience and see these issues as a form of progress; it's not a reason to stop here.

Back on page 361 I was chastised for stating I get my science information from science textbooks (written before the internet). The criticism was that the books are outdated and the science has advanced (meaning scientific understanding I guess Dan B was saying). My reply was not the fundamentals of science (which is what textbooks teach). That is relevant to your last sentence regarding progress. Some of the best engineering practice is to accept a level of advancement, meaning understanding what is "good enough".

Scale your battery charging observations (concerns) to the next level of automotive products, heavy trucks, construction, and mining equipment. These vehicles are single-purposed to perform heavy work. EV batteries do not scale well here. They can't be recharged while the operator sleeps at home all comfy in his bed. These vehicles are run constantly in some cases and operators are changed out. These vehicles use the same fuels as light-duty cars and pickup trucks. Taking away the gasoline fuel market for light-duty vehicles (where EV sort of works) effects the heavy-duty vehicle market because gasoline and diesel (and jet fuel) are refined at fixed ratios. That means diesel can't be produced without gasoline as an adjacent product of refining oil. These ratios are fixed by trillions of dollars of refinery hard infrastructure. So when you want to advance the state of the art of light-duty EV you are inadvertently creating a downstream effect on other parts of the economy that will raise the price of everyday items and limit the availability of products and services.

This is why I advocate to advance the more efficient combustion of gasoline and diesel. Batteries are limited and antiquated thinking.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

EV battery outgassing is so fast and lethal, you literally don't have time to pull over and get out. I suspect this is one reason why EV car fires kill more people than a 1971 shitbox Pinto. You can really see it in all the Chyna scooter in an apartment outgas ignition vids. Now imagine you have your kids strapped in their car seats, how horrible.

EV owner: ''That would never happen to me of course it wouldn't, they don't design for that to happen, how could that possibly happen to mine blowing out like that...Oh honey we're only charging the suv outside the garage from now on'

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Montreal-area Tesla owner frustrated after accident using driving app

I will never park my G82 next to or close to those called smart cars. Don't worry, I will stay away from you guys

A colleague of mine, lead tech geek, Jason, back in 2019 was demonstrating his Model 3's fetch feature. We were standing at the front door of the building. The parking lot is in front of the building but separated by a road between the building and the parking lot, which is just two rows of spaces with a good 25 feet between them. After about 2 minutes, his Model 3 just got all confused trying to navigate to us. Jason had to hit the red abort button on the app to avoid his Model 3 from hitting another parked car. I said sarcastically, "Man we could have just walked over to your car in about 30 seconds". He just smiled. Beta testing...

The whole thing felt uncomfortable to me, like watching someone's home movie of his little kids running around naked in the back yard.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Scale your battery charging observations (concerns) to the next level of automotive products, heavy trucks, construction, and mining equipment. These vehicles are single-purposed to perform heavy work. EV batteries do not scale well here.

That will be enough common sense and clear thinking from you, mister. Please return to our regular emotionally driven drivel masking as facts.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

That will be enough common sense and clear thinking from you, mister. Please return to our regular emotionally driven drivel masking as facts.

Cell phones are great! See how far they've advanced in 25 years? EV will happen the same way.

[Equilibrandt]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Back on page 361 I was chastised for stating I get my science information from science textbooks (written before the internet). The criticism was that the books are outdated and the science has advanced (meaning scientific understanding I guess Dan B was saying). My reply was not the fundamentals of science (which is what textbooks teach). That is relevant to your last sentence regarding progress. Some of the best engineering practice is to accept a level of advancement, meaning understanding what is "good enough".

Scale your battery charging observations (concerns) to the next level of automotive products, heavy trucks, construction, and mining equipment. These vehicles are single-purposed to perform heavy work. EV batteries do not scale well here. They can't be recharged while the operator sleeps at home all comfy in his bed. These vehicles are run constantly in some cases and operators are changed out. These vehicles use the same fuels as light-duty cars and pickup trucks. Taking away the gasoline fuel market for light-duty vehicles (where EV sort of works) effects the heavy-duty vehicle market because gasoline and diesel (and jet fuel) are refined at fixed ratios. That means diesel can't be produced without gasoline as an adjacent product of refining oil. These ratios are fixed by trillions of dollars of refinery hard infrastructure. So when you want to advance the state of the art of light-duty EV you are inadvertently creating a downstream effect on other parts of the economy that will raise the price of everyday items and limit the availability of products and services.

This is why I advocate to advance the more efficient combustion of gasoline and diesel. Batteries are limited and antiquated thinking.

This is the kind of conversation the world needs to be having; I've never actually thought about this. I'll admit I don't know much about crude oil refining; just that certain temps generate certain products but without a full top to bottom flow, a lot of the crude is wasted. We can't just make Jet Fuel and Diesel and not make Gasoline and all the other lubricatives.

In your example, the thing that scares me most is the downstream, like you mentioned. I don't see a single negative to every delivery truck being an EV; mail, packages, shelf-stocking, logistics. However, reserving oil-products/diesel for exclusively-heavy lifters would be horrendous: I'm trying to imagine how much it'd cost to excavate and prep land for a residential build if the larger machines were the main and only consumers of fuel. As if housing prices aren't high enough now!

I think I disagree with the refinery/infrastructure POV, though. Plenty of previously-booming infrastructure and business has dried up; when's the last time you went into a vacuum repair store? (Obviously a low-brow example, but a just one.) How much longer will the car dealership model continue to be a smart real estate investment as more and more manufacturers move to partial online sale offerings? Growing pains are growing pains but the world's still spinning.

I think we all know how it's going to go. Promised, "hard" deadlines that get pushed further and further to the right every 5 years; but it's these looming, truthfully soft deadlines that drive innovation toward better battery technology, range improvements, EV tire technology, etc; one might argue that without a deadline (even a fake one), no one would push the envelope without huge financial benefits, which EVs are not, currently.

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Reality sets in.

Layoffs of the supercharger team and new product team (new products? what?).

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Layoffs of the supercharger team and new product team (new products? what?).

New product is robotaxi, when the big man has claimed the August 8 date... times a ticking to keep his genius rolling...

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Equilibrandt

This is the kind of conversation the world needs to be having; I've never actually thought about this. I'll admit I don't know much about crude oil refining; just that certain temps generate certain products but without a full top to bottom flow, a lot of the crude is wasted. We can't just make Jet Fuel and Diesel and not make Gasoline and all the other lubricatives.

In your example, the thing that scares me most is the downstream, like you mentioned. I don't see a single negative to every delivery truck being an EV; mail, packages, shelf-stocking, logistics. However, reserving oil-products/diesel for exclusively-heavy lifters would be horrendous: I'm trying to imagine how much it'd cost to excavate and prep land for a residential build if the larger machines were the main and only consumers of fuel. As if housing prices aren't high enough now!

I think I disagree with the refinery/infrastructure POV, though. Plenty of previously-booming infrastructure and business has dried up; when's the last time you went into a vacuum repair store? (Obviously a low-brow example, but a just one.) How much longer will the car dealership model continue to be a smart real estate investment as more and more manufacturers move to partial online sale offerings? Growing pains are growing pains but the world's still spinning.

I think we all know how it's going to go. Promised, "hard" deadlines that get pushed further and further to the right every 5 years; but it's these looming, truthfully soft deadlines that drive innovation toward better battery technology, range improvements, EV tire technology, etc; one might argue that without a deadline (even a fake one), no one would push the envelope without huge financial benefits, which EVs are not, currently.

The free market is the best force for creation of new and better products, not government mandates. That's how all this started, with CARB.